Bill Wyman

During the small tour you made last year, you were singing on stage. Why don't you do it anymore ?
It doesen't come easy...
I've never done it with the Stones or before, so Amsterdam, Hamburg and London were the first time I ever stood on a microphone.

Do you regret having done it ?
I didn't like it.... I was always thinking like "one more song and then I have to sing".
I didn't really want to do it. The audience was nice, but I didn't feel right so I said no more me singing.
There's nothing on the second album with me singing, barely on the first one, and maybe I'll do 1 or 2 blues on the next album, but no more stage. I'm the bass player.

Songs like "Si si je suis une rock star" that you were singing some time ago may be easier to perform live ?
Yes ! We call it "tongue and cheek music". It's a bit like a comedy...
Ringo (Starr) does it with songs like Yellow Submarine, or Octopus's Garden, and you don't need to have the best voice in the world to manage songs like that.
But in my band, I have 4 great singers, so why singing myself ?

You could have performed "Si si..." yesterday in Paris, the audience asked for it.
(laughs) Well, I used to do "Stuff (can't get enough of that stuff) last year, and it used to go down very well, but I can't play the bass when I sing .

You've always been considered as a shy person, someone cool, calm, and collected...
Yes, I'm always shy in front of an audience, so I'm always at the back, in the shadows, just doing it. I don't like the front, the adulation. I'm your favorite undertaker !!! (laughs)

A big part of your audience is young, and doesen't know the music you're playing. Most of them come to see the Rhythm Kings because they're Stones fans. What can you tell them about the music you play ?
We play traditional music. But 1st of all, I want to say that everytime the Stones played, they had young people coming to their shows, and they still do. The Stones introduced all these young people to the blues music, and I'm doing the same thing.
When the Stones started playing the blues, it was not on the radio, and you couldn't find this kind of records in the shops. When the Stones made it popular, with other bands like the Yardbirds or the Animals, the record companies brought the records in from America and sold them. Then, blues became a big music in the 60ies.

What can we expect on the 3rd CD ?
It's gonna be early blues, from the 20ies-30ies, and maybe a bit of ragtime, that is a good music too, but nobody's playing it. I have no restrictions , no limits, no musical history to live with.

During an interview I had with Mick Taylor this summer, he told me he made several sessions for you during the recording of "Anyway the wind blows". Will others songs be released with him on the guitar ?
When we worked with Mick, he was not in very good shape.
He was coming out of a divorce, he had no guitar, no amplifier because he sold everything. He had no money, he was living by his mother in Wales, and was a bit mixed up.
I used him for 3 evenings and what I got from him was very little. Everything was badly played, it wasn't the Mick Taylor I wanted.
I was very disapointed, I paid him good money for the sessions, and he went away.
I heard short after that he put a band together and was playing blues in small clubs.
Then I heard last year that the man who did the mixing on our 1st album was producing a record with him.
Then I met him 2 monthes ago when I was mixing in the studio, and he was like the old Mick Taylor. I think he's back to normal, so maybe next year, after Christmas, when we'll be working on the next album I'll call him, because we didn't get very good things from him the 1st time.

I asked him what he thought about your leaving the Stones after the 89/90 World Tour, and he answered he was surprised you didn't quit by the same he did...
(laughs) 74 ? Well I thought many times of leaving because I was frustrated musically.
If you are any competent musician, if you have creative ideas, ideas of songs, of arrangements, in a band like the Stones, where these 2 people do all the things, there is no freedom.
You're always frustrated, you don't have the chance to do a song on the album, like the Beatles did with Ringo and George, or like Led Zeppelin, where everybody was given a chance to contribute. There never is a chance with the Stones.
In the 70ies, I didn't quit the band because I thought "OK, let's do solo albums", so I went to California, and worked with great musicians : Leon Russel, Dr John, Van Morrisson, Sly Stone...... I had all the people I loved on my solo albums, and then my frustration was gone.
In the 80ies, I made movie musics for Dario Argenta's horror films, I made a big movie score for a major film with Omar Shariff called "Green Ice". The film was shit but the music was good !!! (laughs)
So I was releasing this tension with my solo albums, but I didn't want to play music just for money. I want to be creative, more adventurous, and that's why I left. I didn't want to stay in the Stones, and be stuck in a position having to play a music I didn't like anymore and that restricted me from doing all the others things I'm interested in because of time.

What about the following of your book " A Stone Alone" ?
My work on the 2nd book is finished, but my problem is trying to find someone to write it for me. Ray Coleman who wrote the 1st died this year.
I tried someone else, a similar kind of person, who worked for musical papers many years, and toured with us in the 60ies like Ray Coleman did . He made some chapters but I didn't like his work, so I'm looking for somebody who would be compatible with me to write the 2nd book, but my part is finished.
The 1st one took me 13 years, the 2nd one seven, and I already started on the 3rd one. These books are slow work, research, because there are so many details. On the 1st one the printer made some mistakes in dates and I was looking stupid, but I'm not writing these books for the critics, I'm writing them for the fans.

Is it true that Mick Jagger wanted to have acces to your files ?
He wanted to take a black pen and make a complete edit on my book before I released it.
I didn't accept and he wasn't very happy.
When he wanted to make a book, he wanted all of my information, and I just said "Piss off".
My book has nothing to do with him. If he writes a book, he should write it from what he remembers.

Nowadays your philosophy  seems to be "Get as much enjoyment as possible ...
 ...even if you don't get paid. (laughs)

Do you mean that you don't get paid with the Rhythm Kings ?
I don't make any money ! How can you ?
We don't sell so many records. When I make the album, I pay the musicians.
The record company buys the album, and they don't give that much money. Then you go on tour, and play small clubs.
We need a road crew, and I have to pay all these great musicians a good price otherwise they don't come, because they make more money alone. But in the band, Georgie Fame, Gary Brooker, everybody does it for the love of music because they work for not very much money.
There isn't enough money, and that's the reason why we can't play Spain, Italy, the south of Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Poland or Russia. We had invites for all those countries, but we can't play there because it means flying.
If you fly 10 people to one place, the money of 2 shows is gone.

And you hate flying ....
Yes, I can go by car or train, but the point is the others fly. This small tour, playing clubs, where the music is best, and where the music was actually written for is not a way to make money.

We can imagine it's difficult to get rich and succesful with a kind of music that is neither heard on radio, nor seen on TV...
Sure ! But why is it that in music, anything more than 5 years old - apart from a few hits - is never played on radio to the young public ?
You can go to art exhibitions, from van Gogh or Leonardo, you can see the whole history of art in museums and exhibitions. You can see the oldest film that was ever made, etc etc, so why not the same with the music industry?
Because of the fashion, the young people don't have any access to the history of music, unless people like me revive it. There are very few people to revive it, because you can't earn any money doing it.

Keith Richards always promotes the old rock n'roll, saying "Everybody talks about rock music, but what happened to the roll ?"
Yes, but he doesen't go as far as me. He doesen't put it into practice.
He tries with the X-pensive Winos but when he goes on the road, half of his show is Rolling Stones' songs, so he plays safe.
Mick Jagger does the same. When he made his shows in Australia he played 22 songs and 17 were Rolling Stones songs.
Ronnie Wood does the same.

The Stones will tour the UK next summer, and the fans hope to see you on stage with them. 
Would you accept if they invite you ?
The Stones are not Spinal Tap...

Does that mean you would refuse ?
No, I don't refuse, but I see no reason for doing it.
If they were doing something special, like maybe a TV special for the year 2000, playing the old songs, then maybe I'll do it.
But that part of my life is over. I moved to other things that are much more satisfying inside.

Did you see them on their Bridges to Babylon tour ?
No, because they cancelled England. They did so because taxes were too high. They're interested in money.

I have met an american fan who crossed the Atlantic especially to see you live in Amsterdam and here in Paris. 
Are you planning some american and japanese dates ?
No. We'll make only these few dates.
We don't even play in England. You have only a few places in Europe where you can play this kind of traditionnal music, but you have nothing in England. You can't bring this kind of music to the young people so they never know about it, and they never buy it.
It's like the blues in the early 60ies.


Last question : What about other Sticky Fingers cafés in Europe ?
No. It's out of question because I'll have to keep an eye on them and to travel. I don't want to travel too much.


Paris, France.
Tuesday, October 11th 1998.
(Doctor Stones)

Paul Simonon on John Lydon

You were the member of The Clash who was actually most friendly with the Sex Pistols and John Lydon's circle of friends. What are your memories?

The first time I saw John was at the Nashville. I sort of knew Steve, Paul Cook and Glen Matlock, and I knew of John because Bernie Rhodes talked about him, but had never met him. John seemed like he had a pretty strong attitude towards the audience -- or anybody -- insofar as it wasn't 'Pleased to meet you, this is my little group' and more a case of 'I don't give a toss about you, I'm on the stage and I'll do what I like'. If you think about that period most of the world was still in flares and had long hair, and here's this character with a ripped-up jumper and cropped hair. The first time we had a conversation was outside the Screen On The Green and he was with a bunch of his mates. I went over and asked him if he knew where I could buy some cigarettes and he said (sarcastically) 'Yeah, there's a shop about two miles in that direction'. We giggled at each other, he showed me the shop and it went from there. I haven't seen John in ages, but we seemed to have a respect for each other from the start. We both came from non-musician situations, which might have something to do with it.

Were you fans of his later work with PiL?

Yeah, I thought it was brave to jump in at the deep end after the Pistols, but that's John, he doesn't do things by half measures. He's always been very clear on where he's going. A lot of people slagged him off for doing the TV thing but I thought it was good to do because people have the wrong idea of him -- like some sort of fat, bean-slurping idiot like in that Alex Cox film [Sid & Nancy]. That pissed me off, making him look like an idiot. Whereas when he did the TV show the rest of the world saw a very sharp, intelligent human being and that surprised a lot of people. They expected him to be a mindless idiot, but John has a fantastic wit, a wicked sense of humour.

セックス・ピストルズやジョン・ライドンの仲間たちと、実際には最も親しかったクラッシュのメンバーでしたが、どんな思い出がありますか？

ジョンに初めて会ったのはナッシュビルでだ。スティーブ（・ジョーンズ）やポール・クック、グレン・マトロックとは知り合いだったし、ジョンも知ってた。バーニー・ローズがよく彼について話したから。だけど、会ったことはなかったんだ。ジョンは、聴衆や--そうでない誰でも--に対してすごく強い姿勢を持ってるように見えた。「お会いできて光栄です。これが僕のささやかなグループです」とはかけ離れていて、むしろ「おまえらのことなんか知るか。おれはステージに上がって、好きなことをやるぜ」っていう。世界中のほとんどが長髪にフレア・パンツを履いてたあの時代を考えてくれ。そこに、ビリビリに引き裂かれたジャンパーと刈り込まれた頭のヤツがいたんだ。おれたちの初めての会話は、Screen On The Green の外でだった。彼は一団の取り巻きに囲まれてたよ。おれがそっちへ行って、どこかでタバコが買えないかって尋ねると、彼は（皮肉っぽく）「ああ、こっちの方角に２マイル(※訳注：3.2km)くらい行くと店があるよ」って言った。おれたちはお互いにくすくす笑って、彼は店の場所を教えてくれたけど、すぐそこだったよ。長い間、ジョンには会わないけど、最初からお互いに敬意を払っていたと思う。おれたちは二人とも、ミュージシャンとは無縁の環境から出てきたから、それが関係してるのかもね。

PiL としてのその後の活動については好きでした？

ああ。ピストルズがあんなひどい終わり方をした後、そこに飛び込むのは勇敢なことだったと思う。だけど、そこはジョンさ。彼は物事を中途半端にはやらないんだ。彼は常に自分が何をやっているかをはっきりとわかっていた。多くの人々が、彼をテレビに出演した事で酷評したけど、あれはやってよかったと思う。みんなは彼に間違ったイメージ -- アレックス・コックスの「シド・アンド・ナンシー」に出てくる、太って、豆をずるずる飲み込むマヌケみたいなね -- を持ってるからね。あれには頭に来たよ、彼をあんなマヌケに描くなんて。反対に、彼がテレビ番組に出演したとき、世界中が見たのは、すごく頭の切れる、知的な人間で、たくさんの人が驚かされたんだ。頭が空っぽのバカ野郎を期待していたんだろうね。だけど、ジョンは素晴らしいウィットとひねくれたセンスのユーモアを持ってるんだ。

COPYRIGHT © 2004, 3 A.M. MAGAZINE. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

Paul Simonon on London Calling

How does it feel today, looking back on footage that only previously existed as memories?

You do feel displaced in so far as thinking 'Who are those handsome young men?' (laughing). But, yeah, it's strange looking at yesterday and seeing yourself documented in that way. It's shocking but it's hilarious because back then it all seemed normal. At that age you're like an open book because you're less experienced, so when the producer comes in and starts smashing chairs and throwing ladders around you think, 'Oh well, this is what happens...' To a point, anyway.

You've said on many occasions that the making of this album was one of the happiest times for you in the studio -- when you came into your own as musician.

Really it was Guy's injection of a live energy and enthusiasm that was contagious. We tended to stand up when we were playing a number, and occasionally sit down, but once Guy was in the room there was no time for sitting down because either a chair or ladder might crack you on the head. The thing about London Calling is that it has the quality of a band playing live then and there, which comes down to Guy Stevens, as opposed to the different role of Sandy Pearlman on the previous album [1978's Give 'Em Enough Rope]. Sandy Pearlman was able to extract the live Clash performance and produce it in a very technically spot-on way, whereas Guy's approach was to go in all directions, leave the tape running, charge ahead and everything would be great. Record one song, move onto the next one. Give 'Em Enough Rope is a solid rock record but it was quite different to our debut too. Sandy Pearlman wanted to put the lab coat on and create this supersonic sound, which I think he achieved, but on London Calling Guy was able to translate what we were trying to do in a more human form.

As with so many people before me, listening to The Clash document and mythologize London was a major factor in me moving down form the North to the city. I now live in the Camberwell-Peckham area.

Well, I know Camberwell very well: I used to go to Camberwell New Baths a lot and the cinema, which used to be the Odeon. My old school is around there too, though you've got to understand that I went to a lot of schools.

You made London sound like an adventure playground. 'Guns Of Brixton' was a pretty bleak and violent little commentary, but I thought: 'I want to go there'.

Well, you've got your fair share of things going on up North in where is it?　It sounds like a Durham accent (laughing). You just need someone to sing about it. I suppose you've got Roger Whittaker. Perhaps he could update 'Old Durham Town' into something more contemporary. That was always a big thing with The Clash: writing about what's on your doorstep. But after a while we had become grown men, certainly by London Calling and, having travelled, we had become more worldly and our thoughts more international, as opposed to being eighteen, nineteen, and getting the group to sing about 'Career Opportunities' or 'Garageland'.

When did you first become politicised?

To be honest, I didn't have much choice. When I was pretty young my dad decided we didn't have to go to Catholic church anymore, and went on to join the Communist Party. But what I couldn't get was how comes I was the one out delivering the leaflets and he was the one at home watching the telly! So I was aware of the political system and also, obviously, because I grew up listening to a lot of reggae -- music that had more edge than a lot of contemporary music as far as political content -- it seemed normal. For Joe it was folk music, people like Woody Guthrie or Bob Dylan. For all of us there was the knowledge that a song can be about things other than love, kissing and having a nice dance.

Was there a lot of discussion in the early days about the band's presentation as a political force, or was it more natural process?

Very much. You have to understand that Bernie Rhodes was integral to the birth of The Clash. After rehearsals we'd sit down and ask each other what we wanted out of it and there's that famous line about Terry Chimes replying 'I want a Lamborghini', which was fine for him. But, yeah, we cross-referenced with each other, and asked 'Where are were going? What makes this band different?', rather than 'Let's all get drunk, pull birds and play guitars and that's it'. We wanted more depth, a more human approach.

Would the band have been as powerful or effective without the aesthetic edge? A lot of which came from you: the Jackson Pollock clothes, the military look...

That was why we had so much trouble with our record company, because they were used to groups who didn't have a clue about where they were going, how they wanted to dress or whatever. But because of Bernie everything needed to be in-house: all ideas came from the group itself, which was why we were such a tight unit in that respect. This was especially true during London Calling because we'd parted with Bernie and left our rehearsal studio in Camden because it belonged to him, the Pistols had split up, Sid had died and we felt quite alone in some ways. We found the place in Pimlico and became even tighter. In this type of environment you get tighter, to the point where you didn't even need to talk when you were playing, because there was a natural communication there.

どんな感じがします？以前には記憶の中にしかなかった場面を、映像で振り返るっていうのは？

「このハンサムな若者たちは誰なんだ？」って考えると、すごく悲しくなるね。（笑い）でも、そう、過去を振り返ったり、こんな形で語られている自分自身を観るのは、おかしいね。ショッキングだけど、楽しくもある。なぜなら昔は、みんな普通のことに思えたんだから。あの年齢だと人間は白紙の本みたいなものだ。なぜって、経験がないからね。だからプロデューサーが（ブースに）入ってきて、椅子をぶち壊し、ハシゴを放り投げても、「ああ、そう、こんなこともあるんだ」って思うんだ。要するにね。

あなたは機会があるごとに言っていますね。あなたにとってこのアルバム（※1）の制作は、--ミュージシャンとして自分自身を見つめたとき--スタジオの中で過ごした最も幸せな時間だったと。

ガイ（・スティーブンス）が、生命力と熱狂を注ぎ込んだんだ。それがみんなに伝染した。おれたちは曲を演奏するときには立ち上がり、ときどき座るっていう感じだったけど、いったんガイが部屋に入ってきたら、座るヒマなんてなかったよ。椅子かハシゴに、アタマをかち割られるかもしれなかったからね。London Calling はあの時、あの場所で生で演奏していたバンドのクオリティを持ってる。それはガイ・スティーブンスの功績なんだ。前のアルバム（1978年のGive'Em　Enough Rope）でサンディ・パールマンが果たした役割とは対照的にね。サンディ・パールマンは生のクラッシュのパフォーマンスを抽出して、すごく技巧的に焦点を絞ったやり方でプロデュースすることができた。一方で、ガイのアプローチは全方位的だった。録音テープを回しっぱなしにしたら、突撃する。それですべてはうまくいくっていう。１曲録ったら、次の曲に移る。Give'Em Enough Ropeはソリッドなロック・アルバムだけど、これもおれたちのファーストとは全然違うものだった。サンディ・パールマンは人工的なコーティングをし、超音速のサウンドを作り出したかったんだ。それが彼の功績だと思う。だけど London Calling でのガイは、おれたちが作ろうとしていたものを、もっと人間らしい形でとらえることができたんだ。

他の大勢の人たちがそうだったように、クラッシュの音源を聴くことと、神話化されたロンドンは、私にとって、北部からロンドンへやってくる大きなきっかけでした。今はキャンバウェル-ペッカム地区に住んでいるんですよ。

ああ、キャンバウェルは良く知ってるよ。キャンバウェル・ニュー・バスとかね。オデオンにかかってる映画をよく観に行ったよ。昔通ってた学校もあの辺にあるんだ。だけど、おれがたくさん転校したってことを分かってなきゃだめだよ。

あなたはロンドンをまるで冒険の世界みたいに感じさせてくれました。Guns Of Brixton は荒々しく暴力的な抄録でしたが、私は「そこに行かなきゃ」と思ったんです。

きみも北部ではよくある目にあわされただろうけど、どこ出身なの？ダラム※2っぽいアクセントだけど(笑）。誰かそのことを歌ってくれる人間が必要なんだよ。ロジャー・ウィテカー（※3）でもいいかもね。たぶん彼なら’Old Durham Town’をもっと現代的な感じに作り変えてくれるよ。クラッシュにとって、それはいつも重要なことだった。「おまえの玄関先で起きていることを書け」ってことさ。だけど時が経ち -- たぶんLondon Callingによって -- おれたちは大人になり、旅をして、もっと世界的になって、おれたちの思考も国際的になったんだ。18や19の頃、そしてCareer Oppotunities や Garageland を歌ったグループとは真逆にね。

最初に政治的な考えを持ったのはいつ？

正直言って、あまり選択の余地もなかったんだよ。かなり幼かった頃、親父がもう二度とカトリック教会に行く必要はないって決めて、共産党に入ったんだ。だけどわからなかったのは、なぜおれがチラシを配らなきゃならないかってことで、親父はといえば、家でテレビを見てるだけだった！おれは政治の仕組みとかなんとかに目を開かされたんだ。明らかに、大きくなってレゲエ--政治的な内容に関しては、現代の音楽よりずっと鋭い視点を持っている--をいっぱい聴いたせいだよ。ジョーにとって、それはフォーク・ミュージックだった。ウディー・ガスリーやボブ・ディランのようなね。おれたちみんな、一つの曲が、愛だとかキスするとか、いかしたダンスを踊るなんてこと以外のことを語ることができるってことを知っていたんだ。

初期の頃、バンドの政治的な影響力についての表現については、よく議論しました？それとも、もっと自然な成り行きだったのですか？

すごくよく話し合ったよ。バーニー・ローズがクラッシュの誕生に不可欠だったってことを理解しなくちゃいけない。リハーサルが終わると、俺たちは座り込み、お互いに何を求めているかを尋ねあった。そこで、テリー・チャイムスの有名な「おれはランボルギーニが欲しい」っていう台詞が出てきたのさ。彼にとっちゃそれが最高だったんだね。だけど、おれたちはお互いを参考にしたよ。そして「おれたちはどこに向かうんだ？このバンドを際立たせるものは何だ？」って問いかけあったんだ。「みんな酔っ払って、楽しくやって、ギターを弾く、それがすべてさ」なんて言うよりもね。おれたちはもっと深い、もっと人間らしいアプローチを求めていたんだ。

クラッシュに美的な鋭さがなかったら、あれほど強力になれたでしょうか？あなたによるものが大きいですね。ジャクソン・ポロック風の服に、ミリタリー・ルック・・・

だからレコード会社としょっちゅうトラブルになったんだ。なぜなら、どこへ向かうかとか、どんな服を着たいかとか、そういった考えなんか持たない連中に、彼らは慣れていたからね。だけどバーニーのおかげで、すべては自前でなければならなかった。すべてのアイディアは、バンド自身から生まれたんだ。だから俺たちはその意味では結束した集団だったよ。特にLondon Calling のときがそうだ。おれたちはバーニーと訣別して、彼が所有してたカムデンのリハーサルスタジオを出て行ったんだからね。ピストルズが解散し、シドが死んで、おれたちはある意味ですごく孤独を感じた。ピミリコにスタジオを見つけた後は、より結束が強くなったんだ。ああいう環境だと、誰でも強く結びつくものさ。演奏している間は話す必要もなかったくらいだ。なぜならそこには自然なコミュニケーションがあったからね。

※1　London Calling
※2　イングランド北西部の都市
※3　ポップシンガー,作詞･作曲家,ギタリストとして活動。1970年から83年にかけて米国1曲,英国7曲がチャートイン。

COPYRIGHT © 2004, 3 A.M. MAGAZINE. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED